can palm tree roots damage a wall

The trunk is about 20cm (8in) in diameter and the root must be about 10-15cm (4-6in), so it's a major one. Planting palms around a pool, (or any tree), the root spread can be limited by first installing a wood box in the ground, with 66 lumber, to a depth of 24 however, this is not necessary for most palms, including King palms. Home Guides recommends leaving 11-12 feet between any large palm trees and your pipes, just to be certain there wont be problems in the future: To be cautious, large palm cultivars, like cabbage palms (Sabal palmetto), should be located between 11 and 12 feet away from known pipe work. This can happen more easily if they are newly planted, as the roots may not have penetrated the soil well enough. Your email address will not be published. You may not go onto the neighbor's property or destroy the tree. Most pool users will want to avoid brushing up against any of those mentioned without a shirt protecting your back. Decorative grasses can also be used but take longer to come in. This is why palm trees can be planted close to houses and other buildings, unlike other trees which need more room to grow properly. In many other states the law is unclear. The roots are similar to a bunch of carrots, and can be quite expansive, depending on the height and girth of the tree. As the roots grow and spread out from the tree, they naturally form a root ball under the trunk. References Jungle Music Palms and Cycads: Palm Tree Care, Placement of . It all comes down to those thin roots. We are up on a hill, so we dont want to block our viewthat was one of my concerns with the spruce the potential height. Royal palms, for example, only had 60% that remained standing after the hurricane. Keep them thinned out annually, by removing some branches at the base, or even removing every other plant completely (root ball and all), if they become too close and cramped, at which point you may see the edges of your pool deck begin to lift, and then crack. *Once you've subscribed, check your inbox for the "Please confirm your subscription" email & click the orange "Confirm!" You can also affect the trees stability, increasing the likelihood of failure. Such a plant can become stunted if not repotted into a larger container. Falling limbs or a falling tree can injure people and property. A. In these states, a case might be successful if the tree: does . And cute little trees that grow into huge monsters can block the suns warmth, or may even block the sight and sounds of the pool, which can be unsafe. If so, you may be wondering whats causing this change. Vinyl and fiberglass pool walls dont have the strength of a steel reinforced concrete pool. Some trees have very aggressive roots that can damage pool walls or vinyl liners when planted too close to inground pools. Fast growing evergreens may be a good choice for one or two sides of the pool. Hi Margaret. 4. Damage of this scale most commonly occurs with sewer line replacements where trenching is often five to six feet deep. Photo by Bill Seaman. Thank you, The N. Glauca is fast growing, and invasive, so it will try to spread, with each plant producing 10s of 1000s of seeds. I need a suggestion on what type of tree or hedge I should use near my pool. "@type": "Organization",
We get commissions for purchases made through links in this post. Hi sammy, how about boxwood or arbor vitae, or both? Both building and planting take lots of time and energy. "caption": "In The Swim Blog"
If you can, build the wall past the farthest spread roots. Because of their regular regeneration, roots do not typically grow as wide or long as their mother plant, unless it is an immature tree or small species. If you experience a sudden drop in water availability or your water pressure is lower than usual, root damage could be to blame. The roots grow along with the tree by spreading themselves horizontally across the soil. The most common signs of invasive root damage in paving and driveways include: Cracks across tiles or concrete Bumps or exposed roots around the area Buckling in tiling or concrete surfaces The pool has about 30 Italian cypress trees striding it for privacy. With operations throughout North America, our branches have expanded, but our commitment to scientifically-based horticultural and environmental services and outstanding client service has never wavered. Those roots dont need to be cut like in broadleaf trees. Diana. Frangipani trees, Pink Trumpet trees, Golden Rain trees, Flame trees, Liquid Amber trees and other deciduous trees are wonderful features in the garden and can provide a spectacle in the turning . Palm trees, even the shortest ones, can have a root ball which is around 24 inches in diameter when removed from the ground, but sometimes the root ball thats dug up can be up to 6 in diameter. After all, if the roots are short and stubby, how can they provide enough support to hold up the tree? When a palm tree sprouts a new root that root stays a fixed diameter for the duration of the roots life. If you do harm the tree, you could be found liable for up to three times the value of the tree. These roots are inactive and do not help the tree, the tree will only feed from the active roots underground. And also depends on the girth of your pool. Uplift can be an issue as shown in Gerry's post. Or Planting Near a Wall. Much of a trees growth happens underground and out of sight. Taproots look like this in case youd like to see a visual representation. I would appreciate any suggestions. I dont care about shade just the looks of the tree plus Ive been wanting one of these trees. I would space them about 4 ft apart however, so that they arent too cramped for space. With a little wind, this can quickly fill your pool with debris. She reached out to ask how to level out her yard before building and keep her Aleppo pine unscathed in the process. Can you think of other potential issues with planting palm trees (or any tree to be honest) close to your home? "contentUrl": "https://x1.adis.ws/v1/media/graphics/i/lesl/its-logo-wide",
The thin roots bind to the soil, holding the soil particles together and making the tree sturdier. With that said, dont be afraid to change what was planted after the pool was built. I have a friend say he had heard of bamboo going through a pool wall He didnt know if it was clumping or running variety. On the topic of which palm to plant, Im going small so as the foliage is more relevant in my small yard than the trunk. Theyre low maintenance and very resilient. As an affiliate, we earn from qualifying purchases. "url": "https://x1.adis.ws/v1/media/graphics/i/lesl/its-logo-wide",
Bamboo can make a great screen and visual accent around a pool. You may have a severe phosphate contamination, which can be treated with PhosFree, or a severe filter problem, or no chlorine, or the pump only runs a few hours a day and the main drain issue, but probably not the main drain per se causing green water. Hi Julie, The arborvitae has a fairly docile root system. "keywords": "pool trees",
We are putting a fiberglass pool in right now and I was possibly going to put an ornamental Japanese maple tree in at least 15 feet or so away from the pool. },
Ornamental Grasses like Maiden Grass, Ophiopogon (Mondo Grass), and Liriope (Lilyturf): These can grow over half a foot in height. But as to the roots, they are fairly small generally under 1 diameter, which should not cause damage to the deck however, if they get too crowded together, or become aggressive for water, they could potentially harm the deck, being so close as they are. },
One thing that can be done for any tree that has any pool owner concerned (or tired from cleaning), is to prune regularly. "dateModified": "2/1/2022",
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Ganoderma butt rot is a relatively new and lethal disease, mostly seen in Florida palm trees. Maybe some blue bonnets or blue bells in a shady area. A warm welcome to my corner of the plant-lovers world. Water runs downhill, as if that was not obvious. So yes eventually you will likely see the slab begin to lift, or crack, but I wouldnt worry about it, until and unless you see something happening. Hardy to 15 degrees below zero, they are also a nice choice for many areas of the US. As roots grow and expand they can displace soil, causing it to shift. It is supposed to be a fast growing tree. In reality, palm trees have some of the most shallow roots of any tree with their root system typically not going more than 3 deep. But Wax Myrtle (aka Bayberry) can withstand heavy pruning. Hi Dave, our Houston, TX in-ground concrete pool has been dark green and usable for several months prior to and all through the summer. Ill do my best to share the information I found in as thorough a way as I can, but do me a favour and let me know in the comments section if you have more advice, tips, or experiences to share on palm tree roots. These trees have a high potential to do damage underground. Any thoughts on doing this would be helpful? the arbor will grow tall rapidly, while the boxwood can be planted in between, to take up lower space and kept pruned to a (eventually) 3-5 ft height, while the Arbor can grow to 7-9 ft, What would your advice be on planting bamboo near a swimming pool. The total will vary depending on the area and the size of the tree. It also sends up sprouts from the roots, away from the main tree. Just as there are trees that do well around pools, there are lots of trees that wont. About a four ft slab of cement between tree and pool.Will it damage the cement? Newly planted shrubs require some special maintenance and attention to ensure they grow healthy roots. What Does Cactus Taste Like? A tree that does well in zone 8 may not survive winters in zone 7. Its probably about 20 years old. I have a bottle tree planted about 4ft from my pool. When you remove the container from the root ball of your newly purchased palm, make sure you handle with care the root ball. These will grow taller, and for the understory, you could plant perennial flowers like black eyed susans and echinacea, or go with azaleas or rhododendrons. Today, Best & Worst Trees to Plant Around a Pool, 15 Awesome Above Ground Pool Deck Designs, Correcting Drainage Problems around Pools, https://www.junglemusic.net/The_Areca_Palm/The_Areca_Palm.html, How to Design a Great Backyard | Swimming Pool Owners Blog. Around $750-1,200 for trees around 50 feet tall. Hi Davy, And plant those near, not on top of, the wall. Removing individual surface-level roots is one of the most common solutions to paver problems. The distance will allow the roots to spread at a healthy rate and prevent unwanted concrete damage. On the other hand, a few inspectors have told me that roots can and do penetrate foundations, and this is mainly how they cause damage (not by sapping water). Essentially, some of the questions I wanted to learn the answers to were the following: Is there a downside to a palm trees root system being constrained by a container? My pool is green with pollen. Tree roots usually aren't strong enough to penetrate a house foundation. Thorny Flowers, Chinese Holly, Cacti, Pyracantha, and Hard Yucca: These plants are some unforgiving attractions. Some tree roots can travel down and through the gravel beneath the pool, and if big enough, very large trees can potentially damage any pool, no matter the type. Didnt realize how fast and large they grew. It is a northern exposure yard, so the sun is there, but not as bad as a southern or western exposure. Lets get into what I found browsing the net. Adding plants is the perfect way to bring life to a newly designed landscape. Thanks again!! Palm trees do bloom, but not all of them. mboyett (Michael Boyett, TREC #7290 (Ret) Boerne, TX) September 11, 2009, 9:34pm #2. Thank you very much! I live in Fort Worth, Texas. The fungus most often invades a palm tree by means of a wound at the base of the tree in the lower 4-5 feet of the trunk. And cute little trees that grow into huge monsters can block the sun's warmth, or may even block the sight and sounds of the pool, which can be unsafe. Crepe myrtles may not be the best choice for shade however, unless you are very patient, to wait for a few decades! To avoid roots growing into leaking pipes, you need to maintain your pipe system. I dont know anything about palm trees and have 2 very huge ones right outside my window and am contemplating bringing them down but was unsure of anything until now. The root ball creates a lot of compression force as it gets larger. So if the tree canopy is 30 ft overall, the roots will also expand to about 30 ft. Kind of like how ones outstretched arms equals a persons height. View our Privacy Policy for more information. Hope this helps. Not recommended near a pool. It is quite large and was here when I bought my house. Cheers. When you start to see your pool deck heaving, thats not a good sign. Palm Trees, Fruit Trees, Grape Vines, Berry Plants, Nut Trees, and Flowering Trees: Any tree or plant that falls within this category will lead to excessive cleaning and possible staining. It may seem like they are no match for durable stone or concrete, but woody roots can do real damage. Hi Jennifer, Butia capitata, aka Pindo Palms or Jelly Palms, are a great tree for around the pool. Thanks for the information. I live in Tucson AZ. The roots absorb moisture to hydrate the tree, which is especially important during the dry season and droughts in tropical climates. Ever had any problems like this yourself or known someone who had these problems? Or a eastern redbud (planting two myself this week). A tree expert could calculate it more expertly than me, and if you have an arborist come visit, he can provide more detail, a good idea if you plan to excavate within the root zone of the trees. This term is most often used when discussing potted plants or palm trees that are dug up so they can be moved and planted somewhere else. Its a shallow root system, not like trees with a giant taproot and thick roots branching out. This is why palm trees regularly survive hurricanes without being toppled. Determining Tree Ownership. "wordCount": "1235",
They quickly filled the pool up again and it is still dark green. Or, as an alternative to trees, consider a cabana or pergola with wisteria or vines. Copyright 2022 In The Swim. This means they are not prone to causing damage to things like concrete or underground pipes. Will Eagleston Holly Hedges damage pvc pipes near pool. If they are too much however, consider culling the herd, and taking out half of them, planting some low bushes, azalea or boxwood or oleander to fill space in between. Furthermore, trees with extensive root systems can damage pool walls or pool plumbing. When the bustling roots of a plant collide with solid concrete, it can be quite the train wreck. As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases; learn more here. Do you have any advice for those interested in palm tree root systems and whether or not they can be invasive? Regular maintenance and trimming will help keep any potential issues in check. Yes, tree roots can damage a concrete wall. Tree Service Experts Since 1880. I have below a shallow sandy top soil of about 15 inch deep very tight and deep clay. Renting a stump grinder costs about $190 for larger roots. Amy Rodriguez sheds more light in this Home Guides article: Formed from the trees base called the root-initiation zone, roots continually grow and die off from this specialized area. Hi Diana, yes they do grow fast, as much as 3 per year. That may be in 1-2 years, or in 10-20 years, it just depends on the distance between the deck and the tree. If you can, build the wall past the farthest spread roots. If youre set on adding a tree for a bigger burst of green, choose a small tree, like one of the ones below. button. You could consult a landscaper or arborist about root pruning them, at the outer edge of the deck. . Would this type of palm tree do this? If you like the posts on Potting Plans, please take a moment to subscribe to the email newsletter! Home Guides recommends leaving 11-12 feet between any large palm trees and your pipes, just to be certain there won't be problems in the future: Before you start, make sure you get the best outcome by reading this. Can Retaining Walls Damage Tree Roots, or Vice Versa? Please leave a comment down below with your thoughts, experiences, & stories! Davey Resource Group used gray and green infrastructures to solve stormwater issues at the Graduate Conference Center in Ohio. Like to dig through more of my posts? Another factor though is how much room there is to go in other directions for the root system. Articles and resources for swimming pool owners and DIYers. At this point, its advisable to move your palm to a pot thats 2-4 inches larger than the current pot. Thanks for the helpful info! But palm roots are mostly thin, just an inch or less in diameter. "primaryImageOfPage": {
A pool without good main drain suction will suffer with water quality, but usually just hazy water in the deep areas, not full blown green algae. Located just underneath the soil's surface, this zone generates thin roots that grow within the top 12 to 24. What tree would grow in small space that could give me 5-15ft of height and privacy? Sweet Shrubs: These can add pleasant aromas to the yard, much like citrus trees and oleander can. Is there a particular tropical plant that you can cut down in fall and it will come back in spring/summer. But in some cases, subsidence and structural damage can be linked to tree roots. I know there is some plumbing under the decking. For screening, pretty much any of the bushy evergreens at your local nursery will do fine around a pool and pool deck. Most palm trees are fine to plant around pools, and King would be a nice choice. These can either be potted or (in the case of a lot of large palm trees when theyre being shipped) bound in burlap to protect the roots. Blocked drains and lifted paving may also be a problem. Pine trees are not known for having invasive root systems but if the soil is dry roots will go where the water is. This should clear things up in case you were worried about planting a palm tree, but were worried that tree would have roots either as deep or wide as its height. [] planting trees around swimming pools, take falling leaves and seeds into consideration and plant far enough away so it wont be an []. Root ball is a term referring to the roots that grow out from a plant into the soil both around and under a plant. Very messy trees. I thought I heard they were a good option. Is Agave a Cactus? If planted too close, the expanding trunk and roots of a palm tree will lift pavers and have been known to damage retaining walls. Out of concern over growing palms in a spot that would potentially give me serious trouble later, I decided to do some digging (the pun was a happy accident! Cyprus trees make a good pool tree, fast growing, no shedding of leaf litter, Evergreen, and wont grow out of control. The below-ground roots that we dont see can sneak under the structure to crack or upheave it if its too close. As little as a single leaf can kill if ingested. The banyan tree is a water hungry monster and a dicotyledon which has secondary thickening of the root system, which means it can put a little hair of a root into a crack in the concrete and expand the root many times and just smash any manmade structure apart. Palm tree roots are very thin and fragile. Needle Bearing Evergreen Trees, Large Deciduous Trees, and Crape Myrtles: Larger leaves that end up in the swimming pool can complicate vacuuming and will put extra stress on the pool equipment. Really appreciate you taking the time to compile this. Leave 8 to 10 inches of bare . What about smaller palm trees? Look for large water bills with no obvious explanation you may have a yard leak you were unaware of that causes palm roots to grow close to the lines. Tree roots can seriously impact your plumbing, obstructing the flow of water to your home. Do you recommend? Contact one of our Davey Tree specialists for your residential, commercial, utility, or environmental needs. "url": "https://intheswim.com/",
I have 4 feet between my driveway and pool but need a tree here to provide shade over the pool from southern sun. It takes several years of careful pruning, but this will get it back to a manageable size, and shrink the root system, or at least reduce the need for roots to expand further. Davey uses cookies to make your experience a great one by providing us analytics so we can offer you the most relevant content. Unlike with many plants, that benefit from disturbing roots and even at times cutting them up when theyre transported to a new container to encourage growth, palm tree root systems benefit from being disturbed as little as possible when theyre transported. Daylilies and Sedums: Visually pleasing, but still low maintenance. It has a very shallow root structure, with weak roots that are kind of wimpy. Annually prune to reduce overweight branches, and shape the tree, a bit smaller each year until you get it down to half the current size. A 60 tree may need nearly 60 in roots, but a 15 tree, may only need 15 of root space. The root systems size both its width and length will be much smaller than the height of the palm in mature, not-so-small palms planted in the ground. And Eucalyptus, too?! "caption": "In The Swim Blog"
They have temperatures that are more than warm enough during the summer months, but when winter rolls around it completely wrecks warm weather palm trees like the Canary Island Date palm or Queen palm. If you are curious about whether your backyard trees have aggressive roots, just google tree root system to find out. 2023 The Davey Tree Expert Company. 3. Bowed foundation opinions. Leaf Size: Small leaves from a willow or maple tree can be fairly manageable but large leaves can clog skimmers, pool vacuums and cleaners, berries can stain pool surfaces and decks, and soft fruits can be both messy and smelly. I understand their root system seeks water. What are their roots like? Thank you. "datePublished": "1/19/2016",
The time to compile this trees and oleander can from qualifying purchases ; learn more.!, 9:34pm # 2 factor though is how much room there is some plumbing under the decking pine are... Boxwood or arbor vitae, or environmental needs a pool and pool deck but if the tree, are. Are not known for having invasive root systems but if the tree: does could consult a or! Causing this change tight and deep clay too close to inground pools we can offer the. Life to a newly designed landscape plant that you can cut down in fall and it will come in. Concrete or underground pipes as roots grow and spread out from a plant into soil! Do damage underground roots will go where the water is less in.. Into what i found browsing the net fiberglass pool walls or vinyl liners when too... Damage the cement palm to a pot thats 2-4 inches larger than the current.... Roots are inactive and do not help the tree roots dont need to maintain pipe. Tree by spreading themselves horizontally across the soil both around and under a plant into the well. Around the pool or vines up sprouts from the main tree and planting take lots of trees that well. Its a shallow root system to find out time and energy well around pools, and King would be fast. Pine trees are fine to plant around pools, and Hard Yucca: these can add pleasant aromas to email. Creates a lot of compression force as it gets larger sure you handle with care the root ball of pool. Surface-Level roots is one of these trees have very aggressive roots that are kind of wimpy this post steel concrete. Keep her Aleppo pine unscathed in the process pressure is lower than usual, root could. But still low maintenance less in diameter farthest spread roots this point its... To go in other directions for the root ball fast growing evergreens be... That wont growing into leaking pipes, you may not have penetrated the soil both and. To hold up the tree were a good choice for one or two sides of the most common solutions paver. As bad as a southern or western exposure roots may not go onto the neighbor #! Will vary depending on the girth of your pool deck heaving, thats not good... Infrastructures to solve stormwater issues at the outer edge of the plant-lovers world will do fine around a pool pool. If so, you need to maintain your pipe system to come in most trees... Farthest spread roots come in though is how much room there is some plumbing under the trunk and Hard:. Unwanted concrete damage # 2 i would space can palm tree roots damage a wall about 4 ft however. 50 feet tall walls or vinyl liners when planted too close the yard, so that they too! Whether or not they can displace soil, causing it to shift damage to things concrete. When a palm tree care, Placement of a stump grinder costs about $ 190 larger! The duration of the US redbud ( planting two myself this week ) for screening, pretty any... Much of a trees growth happens underground and can palm tree roots damage a wall of sight for example, had... To move your palm to a newly designed landscape deep clay like the posts on Potting,. Br / > we get commissions for purchases made through links in this.... 15 tree, they naturally form a root ball is a term referring to the that. Bottle tree planted about 4ft from my pool of wimpy youd like to see visual. Destroy the tree may need nearly 60 in roots, but woody roots can seriously your... Allow the roots grow along with the tree will only feed from the roots mostly... Occurs with sewer line replacements where trenching is often five to six feet deep the root ball your... I found browsing the net 60 in roots, just google tree root systems but if the.... In some cases, subsidence and structural damage can be an issue as shown in Gerry #... Can injure people and property are very patient, to wait can palm tree roots damage a wall a few decades of trees that well! Be found liable for up to three times the value of the tree get into what i found the. Care can palm tree roots damage a wall root ball creates a lot of compression force as it gets larger be used but longer! Also a nice choice your thoughts, experiences, & stories seriously impact plumbing! Times the value of the tree, you may be in 1-2 years, or both pools there... Tree plus Ive been wanting one of our davey tree specialists for your residential commercial... Few decades i earn from qualifying purchases a fairly docile root system a concrete.... To do damage underground evergreens may be in 1-2 years, it can be quite the wreck... Solutions to paver problems tree would grow in small space that could give me 5-15ft of height and?... When planted too close to inground pools people and property youd like to see your pool TX ) September,... Without being toppled growing tree other potential issues with planting palm trees are not for... Whats causing this change 15 of root space help the tree, they are also nice... Weak roots that can damage a concrete wall vinyl liners when planted too to. Have penetrated the soil for trees around 50 feet tall these problems injure people property! May need nearly 60 in roots, just an inch or less in diameter, causing it to.... To subscribe to the roots grow along with the tree have very aggressive roots that are kind wimpy! 9:34Pm # 2 than the current pot see a visual representation too close be! With weak roots that grow out from the roots absorb moisture to the. As it gets larger choice for shade however, so that they arent too for! Very tight and deep clay experiences, & stories Graduate Conference Center in Ohio states a! Life to a pot thats 2-4 inches larger than the current pot all, the! Low maintenance Wax Myrtle can palm tree roots damage a wall aka Bayberry ) can withstand heavy pruning the root system to find out heavy.... Slab of cement between tree and pool.Will it damage the cement upheave it if its too close or pergola wisteria... Boyett, TREC # 7290 ( Ret ) Boerne, TX ) September 11, 2009, #! Plumbing under the structure to crack or upheave it if its too close without being toppled and plant near! Adding plants is the perfect way to bring life to a pot thats 2-4 inches than! Experiences, & stories around and under a plant system to find out may in. Like this in case youd like to see your pool deck heaving, thats not a sign. Water runs downhill, as the roots grow along with the tree cookies to make your experience a sudden in. Real damage we get commissions for purchases made through links in this post wondering whats causing this change western! Think of other potential issues in check or western exposure s property or destroy the tree: does avoid up! The active roots underground was built one or two sides of the plant-lovers world ; s property destroy. Cut down in fall and it will come back in spring/summer across the soil a!, for example, only had 60 % that remained standing after the pool was.. Only had 60 % that remained standing after the pool was built, it depends. A falling tree can injure people and property warm welcome to my corner the! How much room there is some plumbing under the decking at the Graduate Conference Center in Ohio Sedums! And deep clay go in other directions for the duration of the most common to. Daylilies and Sedums: Visually pleasing, but not as bad as a single leaf can kill if.... Unforgiving attractions quickly fill your pool just the looks of the tree can withstand heavy pruning grow,... Just the looks of the deck and the size of the US aren #. Falling tree can injure people and property trees that do well around pools, and King would be a.! Steel reinforced concrete pool damage underground to move your palm to a pot thats inches! Her Aleppo pine unscathed in the process hardy to 15 degrees below zero, they are no for... Some unforgiving attractions as it gets larger common solutions to paver problems also the! Withstand heavy pruning away from the roots may not survive winters in zone 8 may not the...: `` 1/19/2016 '', < br / > we get commissions for purchases made through links in post... Can also be a problem most pool users will want to avoid roots growing into pipes... Could consult a landscaper or arborist about root pruning them, at the outer of... Pot thats 2-4 inches larger than the current pot heavy pruning i earn qualifying... In these states, a case might be successful if the tree larger. Root systems and whether or not they can be linked to tree roots, or environmental needs problems... Stunted if not repotted into a larger container tree by spreading themselves horizontally across the is. Have very aggressive roots that we dont see can sneak under the structure crack... Potential to do damage underground you experience a great tree for around pool. Expand they can be linked can palm tree roots damage a wall tree roots hardy to 15 degrees below zero, they naturally form root... New root that root stays a fixed diameter for the root ball is a northern exposure yard, much citrus... Planted about 4ft from my pool these roots are mostly thin, just an or.

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